[afterthefact]

I'm sick of it. No what you expected to hear? Well, a week ago, and for the past, oh I don't know, 2 years maybe, I never would have expected to say it. But it all sounds the same. I'm the type of person who is constantly looking for something new in music, and noise doesn't provide. I won't say there is no skill involved, because that will start flames like none other on this board, but even the biggest noise "musicians" have to admit there isn't much skill involved. It serves the purpose of clearing the mental pallet, and maybe breaking the usual brain paths you form so as to keep you open to new stuff, but on a musical level, I'm just tired of it. Make some music for god's sake, not just noise. I had this revelation while listening to Robert Ashley's Wolfman Tapes. Yes, the same album I myself uploaded to the board no longer than a week ago I believe, and with great enthusiasm I might add. While I had heard it before and thought I enjoyed it, all I could think was "What in the world is this crap?" I mean, let's look at it for what it is. It's a guy who is praised for doing nothing but making noise. Seriously, stop with the pretentiousness and take off the hipster glasses and see it for what it is. IT IS NOT MUSIC. IT IS NOISE.

[atsonicpark]

huh I like noise.. I think I like melody a little more.. I'm sure someone's going to quote merzbow "if noise is undesirable sound, pop music is noise to me.." Whatever, it's all sound.. compelling sound is good!

[Toilet & Bowels]

there's more shite passed off as gold in noise than in probably any other underground style of music, but that isn't to say it's all crap, the best noise artists are few and far between but are as good as anyone making music in any other style. that's my opinion.

the good stuff:

merzbow
hijokaidan
new blockaders
whitehouse
wolf eyes
daniel menche
smegma
kevin drumm
lasse marhaug
graveyards
hototogisu
prurient

[atsonicpark]

i dig sound in general, so i can get into noise, that doesn't mean i think all noise is relevant or worth owning. specifically bands like wolf eyes who release 400 albums a year. they have some good shit, but who'd fucking know?

[Toilet & Bowels]

wolf eyes i'm more interested in as a live band, i've seen them 7 or 8 times but i'm not in any kind of rush to start buying their records (although i like human animal a lot)

[k-krack]

I'd love to see Wolf Eyes, especially after seeing live videos. So intense.

And threadstarter, that's a really ignorant viewpoint. I would expect that in like, a school discussion about music, not on the Sonic Youth board.
Of course, there's way more trash than goodness in noise, but the good stuff is fucking awesome. T+B said it best, and I'm just ripping him off... but it's what I would've said anyways.
It isn't like (good) noise doesn't evoke emotion at all.


You are fucking right, it ISN'T "music," it is NOISE. That doesn't make it any less enjoyable to listen to, nimrod. There is a lot of talent that goes into things like creating yr own instruments, deconstruction the boundaries of what can be called "music," and making cool sounds that could hardlky be used in the context of a standard format song.
Not everything needs to be hooky and warm and fuzzy to make it listenable.

[Everyneurotic]

there's a lot of great noise, there's also a lot of mediocre noise and a lot of awful noise.

personally, i don't really get into "this whole genre sucks" and, even in genres where bands kinda sound very alike (like grindcore and death metal), i tend to like a good chunk of people doing that sound.

anyhoo, i listen to a lot of noise, the bands i've been digging lately is lasse marhaug stuff (his solo shit, jazkamer, etc.), sutcliffe jügend, consumer electronics, metek, cornucopia, bloodyminded, hentai lacerator, pain jerk, mouthus, towering breaker, reverse mouth, new blockaders.

i love noise and i can't help it, that robert ashley upload you did is also fast becoming one of my favorite recordings ever.

[atsonicpark]

yeah, i don't really think about genres, the noise genre is just as good/bad as any genre. every genre is loaded with bullshit and brilliance.

i dunno. like i said a few posts ago, as long as the sound is compelling, who cares...

[Savage Clone]

It usually starts being good for me when it's obvious that the player's motivation stems from "Check out these cool sounds I can make" instead of "Check out this thing I made."

[Everyneurotic]

yes.

also, it didn't take much skill for the velvet underground, sonic youth, black flag, butthole surfers, many many others to make compelling music, did it?

one thing is that most people think that noise automatically means experimental and, in many cases, this is not the case; it was once, but not for a long time.

[Rob Instigator]

noise is like dada, it is such an extreme outer edge thing to begin with that unless some sort of structure is utilized it truly is just sounds and not "music". music is not and has never been just sounds. It is also rhythm, point and counterpoint, etc. Too many "noise" artists or bands are strutureless, maybe because all they really are is dudes making odd noises, not dudes using odd noises to make music.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by k-krack

And threadstarter, that's a really ignorant viewpoint.

it clearly isn't an ignorant viewpoint, as he states he's listened to noise for a good while.

[afterthefact]

Thank you. I'm not saying it is all crap, but I definitely won't be listening to it for a while. And K-krack, I'm not shocked at your reply since you tend to have diarrhea of the mouth most of the time. But in reply, it actually really CAN make it less enjoyable, especially when you have a million people a minute calling themselves "musicians" for no credible reason. And for your argument saying "Not everything needs to be hooky and warm and fuzzy to make it listenable," that is just EXACTLY what I would expect a huge noise fan to say. I never said anything about hooky, warm, or fuzzy, but as soon as you say what I said to a fan of noise, they assume this is the stance you've taken. No, push music to the edges! Redefine pop, punk, rock, and whatever else you want! Just please, if you insist on calling it music, than at least make it sound like music. Make noise. Make all of the noise you want. But then try something that is even harder. Make it fit into a song. I mean, anybody can make noises, but it's the great bands like SY that are able to create these noises, and then make them into, not only a listenable song, but a great song. That's what separates the true musicians from the 16 kid with 13 pedals and a microphone in his mouth.

[Everyneurotic]

i don't agree with that.

if songs were all there was to music then most jazz would not fit in, amazing works by ornette coleman or alice coltrane or derek bailey or kaoru abe wouldn't be deemed valuable because they don't have verses and choruses?

not to mention improvisational music.

BUT i do agree in that noise should be an enjoyable listening experience (or a punishing listening experience or a soothing listening experience), that it shouldn't be wanking for the sake of wanking just as guitar solos shouldn't be. there's plenty of people doing that, even when improvising, that take you on a journey and every note and texture counts even if it's not a standard song format.

hey, i love songs, i love cheap trick; but i also like someone like masonna who just let's it rip and these pieces become something else, an entire different musical experience.

[Rob Instigator]

i think what happens is that the noise bands are doing what sonic youth did which is to just "play" and get together and make sounds and noise and rock for hours on free form weirdness. This is good because it allows a band to create new musical language. However, bands now have taken to recording and putting out these sound workshops (in a sense) which was never done before. it is a natural progression from the times when bands released what were essentially demos out as the finished product of a CD or record. (sebadoh, eric's trip, pavement, etc,) it is no wonder then that bands like lightning bolt and wolf eyes are crafting more song oriented material, and I mean that very loosely, but that is the only direction it can go. Let's now see which noise acts can take the next step forward.

[Rob Instigator]

Originally Posted by Everyneurotic

i don't agree with that.

if songs were all there was to music then most jazz would not fit in, amazing works by ornette coleman or alice coltrane or derek bailey or kaoru abe wouldn't be deemed valuable because they don't have verses and choruses?

not to mention improvisational music.

BUT i do agree in that noise should be an enjoyable listening experience (or a punishing listening experience or a soothing listening experience), that it shouldn't be wanking for the sake of wanking just as guitar solos shouldn't be. there's plenty of people doing that, even when improvising, that take you on a journey and every note and texture counts even if it's not a standard song format.

hey, i love songs, i love cheap trick; but i also like someone like masonna who just let's it rip and this pieces become something else, an entire different musical experience.

it is not about "songs". it is about STRUCTURE of some sort, any sort. even a couple or crescendos adds some sort of structure, however tenuous. otherwise it truly is sounds and not music. all sounds can be used to make music. but too many noise acts make just sounds. Ican deal with it but it is as tedious as an Interrpol show

[Savage Clone]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

i think what happens is that the noise bands are doing what sonic youth did which is to just "play" and get together and make sounds and noise and rock for hours on free form weirdness. This is good because it allows a band to create new musical language. However, bands now have taken to recording and putting out these sound workshops (in a sense) which was never done before. it is a natural progression from the times when bands released what were essentially demos out as the finished product of a CD or record. (sebadoh, eric's trip, pavement, etc,) it is no wonder then that bands like lightning bolt and wolf eyes are crafting more song oriented material, and I mean that very loosely, but that is the only direction it can go. Let's now see which noise acts can take the next step forward.

I see what you mean, but Lightning Bolt aren't a noise band and never were to my ears. That music is meticulous and tight, and is obviously the fruit of many an hour spent on honing one's skills on one's instrument. They possess inhuman speed and accuracy. If it wasn't covered in sheets of ragged distortion and contact-mic-in-the-mouth vocals, it's as complex as any freak-prog band out there. That is definitely "music," by any definition, and always was.

[Rob Instigator]

very true. that wou;d be noiserockin and is noiserockin, like confusion is sex

[Everyneurotic]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

it is not about "songs". it is about STRUCTURE of some sort, any sort. even a couple or crescendos adds some sort of structure, however tenuous. otherwise it truly is sounds and not music. all sounds can be used to make music. but too many noise acts make just sounds. Ican deal with it but it is as tedious as an Interrpol show

yes but no.

i agree adding structure is one way to get there and it's something more people should explore that.

hmmm, actually i agree, when it comes down to it, it's because of structure, arrangements and orchestration that makes noise good or bad, even free improvisation isn't as wild or great if there's no direction going (even if dictated by inertia).

ps: never got why lightning bolt were considered noise, nor melt-banana...fuck, even wolf eyes, at least their earlier stuff, but the boring droning crap they have been doing of late, has a lot of musicality in them. they have fucking doom riffs and hardcore vocals going beneath the electronics.

[Everyneurotic]

prurient's albums for load are awful and boring, but most of his other stuff great.

i like sutcliffe jügend better too.

i refrained from making a list of all the noise bands i like because it would be too big.