[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

If you say "there is no Santa Claus," is that cynical naysaying or just what you know to be?

Socialism would be a nice dream. For it to actually work it's another story. Social democracy sure, it works and it's proven to work; but socialism with state ownership of the means of production? I don't know that you will enjoy that.

Well I guess if you "know" it to be, therefore socialism is Father Christmas!

In this country we've had public ownership of various means of production and then private ownership of the same things and both come with their own set of pitfalls but ultimately it's obvious which is more in the public interest. And let me just make clear that that is public ownership.

However Jeremy Corbyn's popularity is only partly about public ownership of stuff, and as much about foreign policy, austerity, income inequality, and the lack of sincerity and clear disdain for the electorate of the political class.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

http://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/1...8_thatcher.jpg

 

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

The UK and the US are very different politic realities.

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/voice-fro...-jeremy-corbyn

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

Well I guess if you "know" it to be, therefore socialism is Father Christmas!

In this country we've had public ownership of various means of production and then private ownership of the same things and both come with their own set of pitfalls but ultimately it's obvious which is more in the public interest. And let me just make clear that that is public ownership.

However Jeremy Corbyn's popularity is only partly about public ownership of stuff, and as much about foreign policy, austerity, income inequality, and the lack of sincerity and clear disdain for the electorate of the political class.

i don't know corbyn or what he stands for. but if you think that the corporatocrats will allow governments to expropriate their profitable businesses then you're 100% unready for the fight that is about to ensue should that be his intention.

as for income inequality, etc.-- sure. the problem is that those who want equality are a buch of easily-defeated wusses. the righ-wingers are evil but get shit done. look at occupy wallstreet and your student riots. zero results. meanwhile, the teaparty put a bunch of people in office and the tories kept scotland.

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/voice-fro...-jeremy-corbyn

i seriously hope he can convince the english yahoo block to vote for him. for one thing it would be amazing to have one fewer enabler-nation of US militarism. sweet shitting jesus, imagine the longstanding US/UK alliance undone. all that MASSIVE military hardware money freed up for reasonable things.

well, fuck, merry christmas then. it's not going to happen, but it's a nice dream. go for it anyway.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

i don't know corbyn or what he stands for. but if you think that the corporatocrats will allow governments to expropriate their profitable businesses then you're 100% unready for the fight that is about to ensue should that be his intention.

as for income inequality, etc.-- sure. the problem is that those who want equality are a buch of easily-defeated wusses. the righ-wingers are evil but get shit done. look at occupy wallstreet and your student riots. zero results. meanwhile, the teaparty put a bunch of people in office and the tories kept scotland.



i seriously hope he can convince the english yahoo block to vote for him. for one thing it would be amazing to have one fewer enabler-nation of US militarism. sweet shitting jesus, imagine the longstanding US/UK alliance undone. all that MASSIVE military hardware money freed up for reasonable things.

well, fuck, merry christmas then. it's not going to happen, but it's a nice dream. go for it anyway.

I'm completely aware that the Corbyn's victory was a smaller battle than what lies ahead. But I'm looking forward to that, it's nice to have a purpose. People will only put up with the bullying of the right wing for so long.
Our student riots didn't really get shit done, but it was a single issue protest. However, they also stem from the same sentiment that lead to Corbyn winning leadership, and one of his policies is to bring back free university education with grants for students. If we can have it before we can have it again.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

I'm completely aware that the Corbyn's victory was a smaller battle than what lies ahead. But I'm looking forward to that, it's nice to have a purpose. People will only put up with the bullying of the right wing for so long.
Our student riots didn't really get shit done, but it was a single issue protest. However, they also stem from the same sentiment that lead to Corbyn winning leadership, and one of his policies is to bring back free university education with grants for students. If we can have it before we can have it again.

okay but free university for students within a market economy is not socialism, it's social democracy. just like germany or many other countries.

a state-run supermarket selling produce from state-run farms where state-manufactured tractors roam on state-owned land is actual socialism.

well, a bit of a clunky example, but i hope it signals the difference.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Don't attempt your points sound more serious by trying patronise me. It's beyond lame.

[demonrail666]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

Well we'll see, but close to 15,000 people joined the Labour party yesterday, and no doubt more will join in coming months, including me.


Did you go on the march yesterday or did you stay at home?

I stayed at home.

I can see Corbyn generating massive support but I really worry that it'll be too focussed on those ideologically of the left, alienating the middle ground necessary to winning a general election. But as I said in a previous post, I'm really conflicted over the whole thing.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

Don't attempt your points sound more serious by trying patronise me. It's beyond lame.

why so touchy? don't like it when people examine or question your proclamations?

this had nothing to do with "patronising" and everything to do with seeking clarification.

if corbyn is not a full-fledged socialist, and you're calling him that, then you're painting him with the wrong brush--- and helping to alienate the middle (as demonyo fears) and hand the election to your enemies.

that's what the american right does with basic reasonable things like health care reform. calling it "socialism" and making it look "foreign," and "radical," and claiming we'll soon be living under a dictatorship-- get your guns ready and stockpile the ammo!

that's what would happen if sanders ever wins the democratic nomination. actual socialists from his home state do not like him-- he's too pro-market. but in a general election he'd be painted as a socialist and an extremist bla bla etc. and just won't win.

i'm sure england has its own version of the red scare that conservatives use to instill fear of mildly progressive policies. it's a universal tactic. in america, the fantasy includes guns (to fight socialist government troops). this even connects with the confederate flag of recent scandals. "states' rights" vs. federal "socialism."

but shit, if free higher education equals socialism, then trade unions must be outright bolshevism! (i'm saying this ironically, but some people actually believe--or pretend to believe-- that)

then again, maybe the term "socialism" is used differently in europe- or maybe the guy is a real old-school dyed-in-the-wool socialist who will nationalize the banks and collectivize farms. that i don't know.

but wouldn't it be easier to explain or attempt to understand what's lost in translation than to make this a discussion about a perceived (or feigned) narcissistic injury?

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I stayed at home.

I can see Corbyn generating massive support but I really worry that it'll be too focussed on those ideologically of the left, alienating the middle ground necessary to winning a general election. But as I said in a previous post, I'm really conflicted over the whole thing.

i'm having a similar-but-opposite reaction to donald trump's rise in the republican polls.

at first i was delighted--let the republicans implode under the leadership of that self-absorbed clown.

now i'm really fearful that after he wins his party's nomination he might go on to win the presidency. because hilary is a shit candidate. and this wouldn't be the first time that 'merica elects an actor/celebrity to the presidency.

yes, i believe in the power of universal stupidity to rule human affairs.

being near los alamos, at least i'll have a front row seat to nuclear war. none of that horrible radiation sickness for me-- instant evaporation is nearly assured.

[!@#$%!]

1. Stop Calling Bernie Sanders a Socialist (The New Republic)

2. According to the New Yorker (The Corbyn Supremacy), "Corbyn makes Bernie Sanders look like Ted Cruz.".

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I stayed at home.

I can see Corbyn generating massive support but I really worry that it'll be too focussed on those ideologically of the left, alienating the middle ground necessary to winning a general election. But as I said in a previous post, I'm really conflicted over the whole thing.

If you're happy but worried then maybe you should get more involved and do something

[demonrail666]

My concerns are that Corbyn will be perceived as too radically left by the general mainstream of society and that, for all the feel-good factor surrounding his appointment, it'll mean nothing if it only results in an even greater Tory majority than we already have. And I'm not really sure how any kind of personal political involvement can change that. Going on marches that he endorses/attends is fine but I doubt it does much to broaden his electoral appeal.

The Labour party have elected a leader. It's now just a case of waiting and seeing how many people in the country actually want him. Personally I'm skeptical, increasingly as much about Corbyn himself as I am his broader appeal, but we'll have to wait and see. The biggest problem (for me) with Labour is that there wasn't a more moderate candidate who looked like a realistic alternative.

[!@#$%!]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/.../?tid=pm_pop_b