[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

wow the common theme of datura experiences are outright hallucinations of other people. EVERY one i talked to about this or read about reported this experience. and we are talking about full on hallucinations not merely sensory distortions.

i myself hallucinated people on daturas, and when i made the mistakeof smoking Salvia (another datura) i also had the most powerful hallucination of my entire life, i was transported into some kind of alternate dimension. it could have been an eternity i was there even though people in the "real world" around me said it was literally just 2 minutes.. i wouldnt know, from my perspective it was infinite. i honestly couldn't tell you if my friends were lying to me or not, it could have been days i was out i have no idea and never will

[greenlight]

yeah, datura is extremely dangerous and poisonous. atropin, scopolamine and few different tropane alkaloids. literally deadly mix. i think roots are even more poisonous then seeds.

but the most toxic is supposedly atropa belladonna. never heard about anyone experimenting with it.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by greenlight

yeah, datura is extremely dangerous and poisonous. atropin, scopolamine and few different tropane alkaloids. literally deadly mix. i think roots are even more poisonous then seeds.

but the most toxic is supposedly atropa belladonna. never heard about anyone experimenting with it.

i threw up more than i ever threw up in my entire life and i honestly and sincerely believe it saved my life.

[greenlight]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

smoking Salvia (another datura)

whaaat? whhooooaaa. what a potent way of intake....

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

you sir, "get" "it".

 

that was frank herbert! part of the litany against fear in dune

good book, that

[Severian]

I didn't say it was a neurotoxin. I said it was technically toxic.

Anyway..

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

no its not. yes i understand that at a macro level toxic implies what you say. but if you hadn't noticed this is a micro discussion. i posted the definition of toxic at this level. psilocybin is not neurotoxic, does not cause harm to brain tissues. THAT is why i reject the term toxic for THIS discussion. its an important point. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING BUT STOP BEING SO OBSTINATE AND HEAR ME OUT FOR A CHANGE. its not an attack on you, it just is what it is



you did realize i posted more science here than you yes? spiritual was a description of the EFFECT of the high, but i have provided plenty of evidence about the underlying SCIENCE but i guess you want to get caught up on the spiritual comment and so disregarded or didn't read anything i posted or checked out any of the links i shared. hey its your loss I FOR ONE ENJOYED THE RESEARCH so i don't mind at all.



NO. In this conversation and to the degree we are zooming in we are talking about psychoactive effects, the pharmacodynamics of psilocybin. toxicity is simply TOO SIMPLISTIC. zoom in with me you'll enjoy it as much as i did..

you're not wrong in general about toxicity, but try and understand what i am talking about, i know you can if you read what i posted and shared rather than argue petty details to somehow make yourself "right" and me somehow "wrong"



not necessarily at all. psychoactivity doesn't always have a moral connotation. scientists can study the pharmacodynamics without asserting a moral judgment. and again, at a pharmacodynamic level psilocybin is NOT toxic which is to say DOES NOT CAUSE HARM TO TISSUES. hence the concept of THERAPEUTIC RATIO



i posted plenty of science, studies, and data. read it. go ahead, pretend this is somehow.about me if it makes you feel smarter or better. i am not the scientist, i didn't conduct the studies. but i do know how to read them, and i know you know how to read them, but i fear you mistake this for some kind of pissing contest too much to actually read the research i shared. fine, but that is your loss.



haha again i notice you keep arguing about like only one thing i said, spiritual, but YOU HAVEN'T ADDRESSED ANYTHING ELSE I SAID, SHARED, OR POSTED. that tells me YOU DIDN'T READ THE STUDIES i shared. it tells me you are being half assed about this conversation.

i enjoyed what i learned by the way. i didn't see this as an argument at all but frankly I'm under the impression you don't particularly like me much anymore and so you continue to misconstrue my posts to you as somehow being antagonistic or hostile. not my intent at all. i just wanted to have a very detailed conversation about the pharmacology of psilocybin but i suppose you're just not interested. oh well again i myself.enjoyed learning many new things about how both LSD and psilocybin act on the brain and how they are different

I read what I could. I'm freaking busy, man. I'd love to chat about this more, but I actually spent an absurd amount of time replying and, yes, reading and/or skimming the links you posted, and I threw away a fair chunk of my morning. That may have put me in a bad humor, but I definitely don't dislike you.
Also I was pretty sure we were talking about different things, and I think that was fairly true. I was on about after effects, you were on about immediate effects.

I get what you're saying about the word "toxic" — macro level accurate, micro level not so much. Fair enough.

And maybe I did act pissing contesty... I'm an imperfect person, and I'm definitely not above that kind of shit. Also, a part of me wants more than anything to go back in time to when studying this stuff — not this stuff specifically, but neuroscience and neurochemistry — were essentially my livelihood. I fucked that up, so perhaps I have some issues with pride and whatnot surrounding discussions of science.

I'm being super mature right now, if I may say so myself.

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I don't like you. And yeah, I skimmed some of that shit. But we both know you weren't posting peer approved experimental journal articles. Anyway, I just want to take this moment to point out once again how mature and self aware I am.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Severian

Also I was pretty sure we were talking about different things, and I think that was fairly true. I was on about after effects, you were on about immediate effects.

i specifically mentioned that psilocybin has very different after effects than LSD, in particular the idea of serotonin dumping.

I get what you're saying about the word "toxic" — macro level accurate, micro level not so much. Fair enough.

thank you its all i was asking for

And maybe I did act pissing contesty... I'm an imperfect person, and I'm definitely not above that kind of shit. Also, a part of me wants more than anything to go back in time to when studying this stuff — not this stuff specifically, but neuroscience and neurochemistry — were essentially my livelihood. I fucked that up, so perhaps I have some issues with pride and whatnot surrounding discussions of science.

i know all of this, that is precisely why i was trying to have such an indepth conversation, most people i know wouldn't be able to have a discussion about the nuances of how different chemicals are psychoactive in different ways because of acting on different receptor sites.
frankly its what i meant by "you're smarter than this"

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I don't like you. And yeah, I skimmed some of that shit. But we both know you weren't posting peer approved experimental journal articles. Anyway, I just want to take this moment to point out once again how mature and self aware I am.

indeed but its not like i posted anecdotes and non science garbage too.. you know damn well there was some intriguing stuff there. worth investigating further.

thank you for productively engAging in the discussion, this was what i hoped for

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by greenlight

whaaat? whhooooaaa. what a potent way of intake....

its one of the only natural hallucinogens that can be smoked

[pepper_green]

looks like you guys have done a lot of trippin!!! toxicity, I don't know about. I just know my bowels where exploding. like I ate a mega bomb taco pizza loaded with jalapenos.

I know the 'come down' that Severian is talking about. it's not really a come down because there's nothing else to call it. more like remnants of a trip fading, merging with a new clairvoyance reality. further 'come downs' are different. more like you laying on the couch thinking about yr life and what cool music you can play and still trip out on.

I've definitely seen particles or atoms. or smelt or felt sensations. breathed walls and saw music. I've seen dragonflies fly with trails of ripples behind them. never a full blown hallucination unless I closed my eyes. even then I had to be close to meditating. more like 'real things' doing 'non-real' things.

the first time I ate shrooms I got a mild high. I was too pussy to ingest too much. plus already being stoned off my ass. summer of 97 during summer school. delivered to me and my friend in a paper brown grocery bag full(remember those?). I even remember the soundtrack we had. Houdini, Sgt. Peppers, the Police and a Phil Collins album. maybe Pink Floyd too. sorta good/bad times!! yay!!!

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by pepper_green

I know the 'come down' that Severian is talking about. it's not really a come down because there's nothing else to call it.

no he was talking about a very specific neurochemical experience that people get from what is essentially a serotonin overload. however my whole point was that this is more so associated with LSD because LSD acts more powerfully on serotonin receptors and because it also acts on dopamine receptors this amplifies the effect. however since psilocybin acts differently on the brain ( it acts on different serotonin receptors than LSD and also does not act on dopamine) it is less likely to have this same come down effect.

more like remnants of a trip fading, merging with a new clairvoyance reality. further 'come downs' are different. more like you laying on the couch thinking about yr life and what cool music you can play and still trip out on.

this is what i was saying, the possible negative effect some people might experience after psilocybin i would say is likely a psychological reaction to the high itself rather than a neurochemical reaction that Severian was referencing which is more so associated with LSD

I've seen dragonflies fly with trails of ripples behind them. never a full blown hallucination unless I closed my eyes.

most people don't. in my experience.the only true hallucinations i ever had were all daturas (both on the hells bells and later salvia) and these were indeed intense hallucinations

[Severian]

LSD, MDMA are definitely interfere more severely with neurochemical activity than psilocybin. MDMA is probably the worst, from my experience anyway.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Severian

LSD, MDMA are definitely interfere more severely with neurochemical activity than psilocybin. MDMA is probably the worst, from my experience anyway.

its because both LSD is an agonist for a wider variety of serotonin receptors in more parts of the brain and also because it also is an agonist for D2 dopamine receptors which amplify the serotonin effect. i always agreed with you that this is the neurochemical come down from LSD, i just disagreed with applying same to psilocybin which acts very differently on the brain

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

i do of course believe that some people might experience the serotonin come down from psilocybin but i would imagine its relatively rare

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

its because both LSD is an agonist for a wider variety of serotonin receptors in more parts of the brain and also because it also is an agonist for D2 dopamine receptors which amplify the serotonin effect. i always agreed with you that this is the neurochemical come down from LSD, i just disagreed with applying same to psilocybin which acts very differently on the brain

True, most evidence points to psilocybin leaving dopamine alone. But y'know, one thing that surprised me when I was reading up on this is that there's still a LOT that isn't known about the precise effects of psilocybin on the brain. There have been precious few fMRI mapping studies, and a lot of experts in the field seem to disagree about the extent to which brain activity (synapses aside) is affected. I read something interesting (will have to track down the source) about psyl opening "communication" between brain areas. This is nothing new, but what I read came at it from a cognitive angle rather than a perceptual one. It may be that there's some genuine scientific evidence behind the notion that ones cognition is affected in a way that would explain empirically why "positive thoughts" and environmental comfort seem to impact one's experience.

'Course this happens with LSD too. And MDMA. I don't know if you've ever seen someone have a bad ecstasy trip.... back when I was in college, folk wisdom dictated that such a thing was not possible, but it's VERY possible, and though I've never had a bad e trip myself, I've witnessed one, and it was goddamn horrifying.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

interestingly while psilocybin and its metabolite psilocin are not dopamine agonists there has definitely been increased dopamine activity observed in the frontal cortex related to ingesting it.

in the links i posted they discussed psilocybin increasing both the brains ability to "conmunicate" and also increased neuroplasticity. its in large part why some legit smart people believe ingesting psilocybin might be an integral part of human evolution.

from a therapeutic perspective its why psilocybin has so much potential value. from my own anecdotal experience this is precisely and exactly why i like psilocybin and like it better than acid. its part of what i meant by "spiritual"

whild LSD is more or less twelve hours of serotonin overload it looks like psilocybin might have a more complex effect on the brain. by increasing neuroplasticity and brain communication it can truly expand human consciousness and thinking. it can help expand insights and processing. in layman's terms, "turn on more light bulbs" hence why not just anecdotally but even in peer reviewed studies people express a revelatory experience.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

i think in a simple analysis, psilocybin can induce a kind of savantism like we see in traumatic brain injury. i find this the most intriguing therapeutic potential for psilocybin.

as a musician for example i intuitively understand this process. savants amaze me. it took me over 15 years of application to "wire" my brain chemistry to use those parts of my brain associated with music. its what separates me from non musicians. its why my brain now processes even just listening to music different from a non musician. subconsciously when i hear music i also hear the structure, timing, dynamics, etc. sometimes i am sincerely curious as to how non musicians hear music and how different their experience is to my own and other musicians.

that savants can almost instantly become better at music than me without any prActice all because of neuroplasticity? shit. if psilocybin can duplicate this effect on the human brain, creating new neural network, connections, and pathways, then it truly is magic

[Severian]

Originally Posted by SuchFriendsAreDangerous

interestingly while psilocybin and its metabolite psilocin are not dopamine agonists there has definitely been increased dopamine activity observed in the frontal cortex related to ingesting it.

This is because of the role dopamine plays in psychosis. Even at the best of times, mushroom trips result in brain activity that comes very close to clinical psychosis, but it's especially true during "bad trips." Some have hypothesized that bad trips can be prevented entirely by administering certain D2 and/or 5-HTP antagonists to the "subject."

Psychosis is strongly correlates with dopamine over-stimulation (see schizophrenia). So basically, mushrooms are thought to have an indirect effect on Dopamine simply by altering ones mood and emotion, perception and cognition in a manner that can mimic a psychotic episode. But this can be fixed, apparently, with certain Parkinson's medications and anti-psychotics.

But really, what's the point of tripping if you're GUARANTEED a good time. Part of it for me was always the "journey." I didn't always like the destination, but I think the experience itself would be less (ahem) spiritual if it was just a pleasure-ride.

Then again, if people suffering from Majo Depressive Disorder and Generalized Anxiety Disorder could be treated with a combination of low-dose psilocybin and a fucking risperidone, that seems like a much safer treatment than the "modern" SSRI antidepressant, which is one of the most dangerous and debilitatingly dependency causing drug classes out there.

[Severian]

I'm just gonna throw this out there:

SSRI's cause dependency, though good luck getting a doctor to say it that way. They'll just say "do not stop taking this medication suddenly" .... But they cause dependency. That dependency carries with it a potential for withdrawal for the duration of treatment. The withdrawal can wreak havoc on your brain, and has lead to many MANY suicides over the years. So for the purposes of this post, let's just say they're addictive, and that the withdrawal can indirectly kill you.

So... again, just throwing this out there.

Conclusion: Antidepressants are more dangerous than heroin. More people are "addicted" to antidepressants than heroin. Heroin withdrawal in and of itself cannot and will not kill you (barring some medical condition), and antidepressants are not only available to anyone who wants them, but they're actually pushed on people by billion dollar industries and the entire medical profession.

So. Yeah. Worse than heroin. Just easier to get ahold of and more socially acceptable.