[demonrail666]

i mean he might have disliked the jews, but i dont think that he would have been a nazi, and even if he would have been, he wasnt, so why accuse him of something that he never had a chance to do?

I agree. Wagner grew up in a culture of anti-semitism that strikes me as being very different to the one envisaged by the nazis. They used him, but I don't think he'd have been particularly interested in them.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by fugazifan

glice- i have talked about it. and him, a lot. i am taking a course on the ring cycle this semester so we'll see how it goes. i was more making conversation and seeing what you feel. i think that there might be a different perspective on the wagner situation if you are not studying him at the hebrew university.

Cool. I appreciate that and, in most situations, I'm happy to gabble on about anything at the drop of a hat. The reason I take a back seat in the Wagner/ anti-semitism thing is that I find it very difficult to negotiate anything like a consistent line. I will say though that part of the reason I find it more difficult to talk about Wagner in a contemporary context is precisely because of the multiple narratives springing out of 'modern' Judaism. I don't necessarily agree with Israel-qua-Zion, and I disagree with aspects of Zionism, but I refuse to decry Zionism outright. The Judaism that you or I understand might be Haredi, Orthodox, Reform, Liberal etc and the Zionism you understand (or reject) is likely different to the one I undersand; the nature of Israel you or I understand is likely distinct.

I don't think Wagner is inherently tied into modern Judaism, or even modern Israeli culture, or even modern Israeli or middle-Eastern classical music culture - I do think the political narrative to which Wagner is tied into (1st Reich) is tied into the political formation of Israel, which makes talking about Wagner inherently convoluted.

I also want to make clear that I'm not saying this necessarily because you're in Israel (last I heard) but because Wagner is a hugely critical figure in the 20th century, whether people know that or not. The only concession I'd really make to yourself is that I'd expect you've got a better understanding of what I'm blithering on about.

[Glice]

Originally Posted by demonrail666

I agree. Wagner grew up in a culture of anti-semitism that strikes me as being very different to the one envisaged by the nazis. They used him, but I don't think he'd have been particularly interested in them.

I'd disagree on two counts: there were plenty of people at the same time as Wagner who weren't as odiously anti-semitic, and Wagner is a massive part of 1st reich ideology, so isn't some incidental character in Nazi ideology.

[SuchFriendsAreDangerous]

Originally Posted by Rob Instigator

the bible is crazy.

thats why I read it a chapter a day for the past 8 years now.. I am on my third time through now.. The bible is the most dramatic narrative I have ever read, it has everything in it putting TV to shame at times.. Ezekiel talks about women making dicks out of their idols and fucking them (LITERALLY, the KJV tones it down so most christians do not even notice, it says "image of man and fornicate" whereas the hebrew literally says "image of a phallus and have sex with it") as a metaphor on religious corruption akin to Martin Luther, that is not exactly sunday school material

[sonicpixie]

ive just started to read the bible properly (i intend to make it all the way through this time as this one is not in miniscule print that hurts my eyes) have got the biggest bible ive ever seen, dont know what version it is, found in a charity shop no idea how old it is there's no date in it or anything, its a damn good read so far! have read the apocrypha and commentaries on the bible etc but never actually read it so thought i should. when i say damn good read i mean messed up.

[atsonicpark]

Gettin Straussed Outta My Mind.

[atsonicpark]

I've read the Bible twice in my lifetime. It's um.. interesting.

[!@#$%!]

Originally Posted by fugazifan

!@#$%$- i am aware of that essay, and that he was antisemitic, but the question is if his operas had elements that could be seen as influential to the nazis in a non anachronistic way.

of that i have no idea.

but nationalism, perhaps, vs. "jewish cosmopolitism"?-- nationalism wasn't his exclusive province, of course, this was the whole XIX century romanticism gone awry... blood and fatherland and all that crap.

??

i really don't know. it's sunday morning and i'm in no condition, ha ha

[TheMadcapLaughs]

Edit: Wrong Thread, Im Retarded

[Glice]

Alfred Schnittke. Cello Concerto, on Naxos. I'm listening to it right now. It's fucking ridiculous. Just insanely good. And complete Schnittke quartets by the Kronos quartet. Also astonishingly great. Get everything you can, except Nagasaki, which is a bit poo.

[knox]

ok i recommend shit i dont care nobody asked so what there you go
spires that in the sunset rise

in case you dont listen to them already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFizpgWk4s

[Glice]

Gondwana, Tristan Murail. Seeing as you're on an electronic kick, it's probably worth exploring precisely the perimeters of electronic/ acoustic music (at least in the 'classical' world)

If that's what spectralists do.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by knox

ok i recommend shit i dont care nobody asked so what there you go
spires that in the sunset rise

in case you dont listen to them already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFizpgWk4s

2nded

[Glice]

God, but they're hideous.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by knox

ok i recommend shit i dont care nobody asked so what there you go
spires that in the sunset rise

in case you dont listen to them already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFizpgWk4s

That was kick-ass.

[fugazifan]

Originally Posted by knox

ok i recommend shit i dont care nobody asked so what there you go
spires that in the sunset rise

in case you dont listen to them already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFizpgWk4s

i love that song1
i always thought that it's what SY would have sounded like in the 80s if that had banjos and acoustic guitars

[chicka]

Thanks Knox for filling up 5 minutes of my life but like Glice thumbs down on the Spires