[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

nothing winds me up more than americans who lay some claim to be european. americans are so different to europeans that you may as well be fucking martians.

Elitist. Yes, we are all the white trash that was forced out of europe by intolerant assholes like you. Because places like Ireland and Germany are closer to you, you have a right to be more upset about it?

and as for the swatika in sin city, firstly that character was a ruthless assassin (i.e. evil) secondly the swastika is an ancient religious symbol in many asian countries. for example, if you look at a street map of a japanese city there are all these little back to front swastikas (or as they are called in japanese, "Manji") that represent shrines and temples, not nazi HQs. so it's very possible that the sin city character and bowie were both refering to the ancient symbol, not the nazi one.

You completely missed my point. I KNOW THAT, Many native american basket patterns also have swastikas at the bottom. My point is that Ben and Jerry's are doing the same thing as Sin City and David Bowie- making referrence to something that shares the name of something evil. Black and Tan doesn't mean Irish Oppression, it means several things, and it is completely clear that Ben and Jerry's named it after the drink, not the paramilitary force, just like Bowie was referring to a Chinese swastika and Miho was throwing a japanese swastika.

BTW Miho isn't an evil assassin. She is a beautiful warrior fighting for the freedom of her sisters.

[SecretGirl13]

well spectraljulianisnotdead when your family gets gunned down in pittsburgh just for the neighborhood they're born into, i'll be sure to name a product line after the assassins.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Originally Posted by SecretGirl13

well spectraljulianisnotdead when your family gets gunned down in pittsburgh just for the neighborhood they're born into, i'll be sure to name a product line after the assassins.

I have very close relatives that have killed themselves and there is a sandwich shop in my town that is called the suicide sub. I couldn't give a shit, and that isn't even a misnomer like black and tan is.

[fishmonkey]

i'm irish, i think its a good idea for an Ice Cream, us irish are thickskined, not much offends us.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Some people can't get it through there head that it is not named after a paramilitary organization, but that it is named after a fricking drink that people all over the world drink, and happens to be popular with American-Irish. There was no harmful intent meant by it whatsoever.

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Now, if the carton looked like this:

 

THEN you'd have a right to be mad.

[Glice]

There certainly wasn't any harmful intent, that much is true. And the American market, especially as America as a culture has a much looser relationship to history than countries with histories of more than a thousand years, will not pick up on it. This is a fair point. Perhaps you don't see why this is offensive because of a cultural difference? I'm not laying into you, I'm not putting this across as a criticism, but, speaking for the part of northern Europe in which I live, there is a distinctly different approach to referencing dark cultural events like the black and tans. Can you at least accept that there is a different set of values at play between Northern Europe and North America?

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Well, Glice, I see why it is offensive and I do accept that Europe is different culturally and more tied to history etc. People are reminded of a historical group of people by an ice-cream flavor. And that offends them. But that is inavoidable, and the treatment of the past I think is very counterproductive. If we were to get upset about everything that reminded us of dark history, how could we live?

If I applied the reaction to the Ben and Jerry's to everyday life, I would be offended everywhere I go.

I could turn on the TV and see the Dukes of Hazzard, a TV show with a car named after a General who fought for the cause of slavery and black suppression, change the channel and I see Mr. Culkin on top of the WTC in Home Alone 2, so I change the channel again and see the spanish inquisition putting a woman on a dishrack. Then I could get in a car, turn on the radio, and hear one of the songs blacklisted by Clearchannel and think about September 11th. Then I'd drive by a Volkswagon and be reminded of Nazism. I could drive to Homestead and see that the waterfront where many protesting workers were brutally killed is now the home of a Lowe's cinema where someone was recently shot at the screening of 50 cent's movie. There, I could see a movie like Sin City where Miho cuts off a guys hand with a japanese swastika, and even though it is Japanese, I am still reminded of Nazism, because the horrors of Nazism has been engrained in all of our heads. We have all seen the pictures of concentration camps from after the liberation, we have all seen the images of lamp shades made from human skin. We as humans have all felt just as terrible about it, and now, I have to be reminded of it because it's symbol has other non-hateful meanings as well. And what did I pay for my movie and popcorn with? Why, the portrait of Andrew Jackson, who defied the Supreme court's ruling and forced Cherokee to embark on the Trail of Tears, I have several friends who are part Cherokee. Then I could go for icecream and be reminded of the Black and Tans, and also of General Custard and his campaign against Native Americans. Then I could listen to Fugazi "I'm In on the Killtaker" and listen to Smallpox Champion. Smallpox, Jackson, Custard, pretty much the main symbols of Native American oppression. My grandfather is native american! OH NO! Then I go hang out with someone and they put on an Agent Orange record. My other grandfather was exposed to agent orange and got lymph cancer, I should be really furious by now!

That was a bit of a ramble, but my point is, you have to live. You can't get upset about every little thing.

[Glice]

Fair point. Agreed on the most part. A few exceptions/ diversions -

1. Artistic referencing of political events/ symbology is in a different category, by dint of its proposing to question the authority of said symbols.

2. There is a distinction between a generally accepted use/ manipulation of historical events (whether good or bad) within a society (for instance, sociolects admitting drinks named black and tan) and a company explicitly referencing a political event or history.

3. The swastika should be reclaimed in its pre-existing form - I know of a Hindu artist who uses it constantly in his art, and no-one bats an eyelid - but the nature of symbolism is open to amphiboly, historical events less so - please lets not conflate categories for our argumentative ends.

4. Again, Fugazi or Agent Orange referncing political events belongs to the realm of art, whereby the use of historical/ political events or items is used to open a dialogue with societies relationship - A large, multi-national company should never, ever attempt to involve itself in the artistic dialogue. Put simply, an artist can get away with saying, "I am questioning societies relationship with [item/ event x]". A company, whose premise is one of commerce, not art or social change, may not.

5. Your example of the Dukes of Hazzard prooves my point for me: American culture has a much higher threshold for when such referencing become offensive.

6. Censorship is again another issue - Again, America has an utterly contradictory relationship with this - you can't listen to RATM after Sept. 11th, but you can drink Black and Tans. The notion then being that the arts are capable of inciting radical thought (which is in a way giving the artists the power they demand) and that the people must be protected. But regardless, this is an instance of artistic censorship, which is to do with the State's relationship to art, not its relationship to commerce. What galls me most about this point is that no-one would think to ban Black and Tans ice cream unless enough people complained; The Dixie Chicks are banned in a pre-emptive strike against their anarchist values. America's relationship to capitalism vs America's relationship to art. 2 different categories.

7. Driving past the scene of an historical event is your choice - and you're more than welcome to it, and you're more than welcome to piss on the Alamo if you so choose, this really is a moot point. Your point is about personal liberty.

8. I don't really know the history of America/ Native Americans, but I suspect that the fact that you are aware that you are paying for a film with a symbol of American oppression of the Native Americans puts you far and away in the minority - And you seem intelligent enough to realise that your government is rampantly inconsistent with its censorship. Awareness and taking offence aren't really so far away - however, I suspect that the approach by Native Americans is one of let sleeping dogs lie, or rather, don't kick up a fuss, we don't want to go through all that horror again. Symbolic opression, many would call it. Ultimately, if people want to kick up a fuss, America is (allegedly) a free country.

Generally, I think you have a good point - people are taking too much offence at things that don't make any difference to their lives (AKA the PC brigade). In the instance of the Black and Tans Ice-cream, I think you've overshot the mark somewhat. But please be careful when you're using examples like those above, people can easily be bowled over by persuasive misceginations of categories like yours above.

NB - I'm not after a fight with you, I hope you're not thinking I'm laying into you particularly, I just think this is a political issue which is really quite important.

*EDIT - I'm not sounding like khcunt here am I?

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

No, you don't sound like KHchris.

"These tensions between Georgia, and the Cherokee Nation were brought to a crisis by the discovery of gold near Dahlonega, Georgia in 1829, resulting in the first gold rush in U.S. history. Hopeful gold speculators began trespassing on Cherokee lands, and pressure began to mount on the Georgia government to fulfill the promises of the Compact of 1802.
When Georgia moved to extend state laws over Cherokee tribal lands in 1830, the matter went to the U.S. Supreme Court. In Cherokee Nation v. Georgia (1831), the Marshall court ruled that the Cherokees were not a sovereign and independent nation, and therefore refused to hear the case. However, in Worcester v. State of Georgia (1832), the Court ruled that Georgia could not impose laws in Cherokee territory, since only the national government — not state governments — had authority in Indian affairs.
President Andrew Jackson has often been quoted as defying the Supreme Court with the words: "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!" Jackson probably never said this, but he was fully committed to the policy of Indian removal. Jackson had no desire to use the power of the national government to protect the Cherokees from Georgia, since he was already entangled with states' rights issues in what became known as the nullification crisis. With the Indian Removal Act of 1830, the U.S. Congress had given Jackson authority to negotiate removal treaties, exchanging Indian land in the East for land west of the Mississippi River. Jackson used the dispute with Georgia to put pressure on the Cherokees to sign a removal treaty."

-Wikipedia


The trail of tears was actually under Van Buren, but Jackson really put it in motion by deciding not to enforce the Supreme court's ruling.

I agree that America is very hypocritical, after September 11th, Clear Channel stations couldn't play Tuesday's Gone with the Wind or Benny and the Jets, as well as political music such as RATM, which is ridiculous. Selective censorship just appears as hypocritical to me and full on censorship fascist.

You have a point with the difference between artistic intent and corporate intent.

I don't really think Ben and Jerry's did anything wrong though, they should be chastised more for the fattening of America than a little un-pc blunder.

[Toilet & Bowels]

actually, maybe america should offend people with the black & tan ice cream as a way of making amends for funding the IRA for years.

[Toilet & Bowels]

Originally Posted by SpectralJulianIsNotDead

Elitist. Yes, we are all the white trash that was forced out of europe by intolerant assholes like you. Because places like Ireland and Germany are closer to you, you have a right to be more upset about it?

not elitist. I just find it bizarre and irritating when people who look like this start telling you about how they're half scotch half polish, even though their great grandparents emigrated to america 100 years ago, they speak with a texas accent and they have no idea what life in that country is actually like.

 

[!@#$%!]

ben and jerry's? what the fuck?

i was reading this silly thread until i found out the discussion was about ice cream

how come nobody shit their pants about this though?

 

have i been drinking the blood of innocents without knowing??

[krastian]

Originally Posted by !@#$%!

how come nobody shit their pants about this though?

 

Ha ha....yeah I was wondering why nobody mentioned that too. I like the regular Lager better though.

[!@#$%!]

on a related note, there used to be a mitsubishi SUV called the PAJERO

in latin america (some parts at least) this means wanker-- someone who jerks off a lot

so they changed the name for obvious reasons in these countries to MONTERO - no fun!

[pantophobia]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

not elitist. I just find it bizarre and irritating when people who look like this start telling you about how they're half scotch half polish, even though their great grandparents emigrated to america 100 years ago, they speak with a texas accent and they have no idea what life in that country is actually like.

 

dear fuck those kids are gonna grow up to listen to toby keith and ann coulter's love child sing about how god likes some people and not others

[SpectralJulianIsNotDead]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

not elitist. I just find it bizarre and irritating when people who look like this start telling you about how they're half scotch half polish, even though their great grandparents emigrated to america 100 years ago, they speak with a texas accent and they have no idea what life in that country is actually like.

 

My point was that I'm related to the people who have suffered at the hands of the Black and Tans. Not that I'm European.

BTW if that picture is what you consider "American" I laugh at you.

[!@#$%!]

i think pantophobia's post is hilarious

i will now put everyone else in my ignore list

[Glice]

Originally Posted by Toilet & Bowels

not elitist. I just find it bizarre and irritating when people who look like this start telling you about how they're half scotch half polish, even though their great grandparents emigrated to america 100 years ago, they speak with a texas accent and they have no idea what life in that country is actually like.

To be fair though, you won't find many Englishmen who, come St Patrick's day, don't lay claim to being from the O'English tribe and so on.

[bull_in_the_leather]

Im irish and fuck that shit about black and tans, those people are fuckin idiots. the way i see it is fuck the irish, complaining fuckin rats that infest the world